St. Francis Xavier Cathedral
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    Doug
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    St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by Doug » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:54 pm

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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by beeb » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:08 pm

    Crisp! Love the lighting. :) I always with you'd long-exposure some of your subjects (I'm an addict, lol) - it would be epic!
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by Doug » Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:44 pm

    beeb wrote:Crisp! Love the lighting. :) I always with you'd long-exposure some of your subjects (I'm an addict, lol) - it would be epic!


    The experimenting I have done with cheap ND filters have not been inspiring and I wonder how much I would use high end ones if I shelled out for them.
    Just not much of a filter person, though I do like he results in other peoples work when it is used effectively.
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by beeb » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:07 am

    Fair enough, it's not everyone's cup of tea. :)

    If you do happen to get interested and you're not using already a CPL, a screw-in ND would be relatively painless for tripod based work. Anything 4 to 6 stops (1.2 - 1.8 ND) is a good range for daylight/dusk (more stops for daylight, less for dusk) without having to run into Bulb mode (too often). Aperture and ISO will give a little wiggle room to push or pull things away from the 30sec timed exposure. If you're lenses have similar filter thread sizes, you can always swap a filter between lenses or buy for the largest thread diameter and use step-down rings to mount it onto the other lenses. Screw-on filters are also easier to get light sealed - though don't fall into the trap of leaving the viewfinder uncovered - you will get uneven exposure or patches of coloured flare! :wink:
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by Eden » Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:59 pm

    Strewth. I am just about to drag out the adjustable threaded ND filter and have a play and had totally discounted the need to cover the eye piece (cheers for that).

    Not that I had intended to use the CPL at the same time as the ND but should the occasion arise is there an issue with using both at once (other than just the extending thickness of them and the seeing of them with the wide angle side of things)

    Cheers
    I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.
    Kurt Vonnegut

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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by Eden » Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:18 pm

    Nice shot Doug.
    Love the detail in the tower and the light on it is great.

    What a stunning building.

    Catch you Saturday mate :)
    I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.
    Kurt Vonnegut

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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by beeb » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:04 pm

    Eden wrote:...and have a play and had totally discounted the need to cover the eye piece (cheers for that).

    Not a problem. I gave away a semi-cheap 10-stop filter because I thought it was crap, wasn't until later I realised I had to cover the viewfinder. :oops: Live and learn!

    Eden wrote:Not that I had intended to use the CPL at the same time as the ND but should the occasion arise is there an issue with using both at once (other than just the extending thickness of them and the seeing of them with the wide angle side of things)

    Not really any issue other than trying to thread the thing on without effecting adjustment.

    If the CPL is already on the lens, 99% chance you're going to end up spinning it around to somewhere you don't want it (unless it has clearly marked positions), or if the ND is threaded on first (and it's a dark one) it can make it difficult to assess the adjustment of the CPL as there isn't much light coming through to tell.

    Eden wrote:I am just about to drag out the adjustable threaded ND filter...

    Be aware - if planning to use a variable ND with a wide-angle lens, you'll more than likely get an uneven exposure (and quite possibly some colour shift too).

    The variable ND's are like two weak polarisers stacked on top of each other. Polarisers are (roughly speaking) a layer of parallal bars, that stop light waves of inconsistent angles getting through.

    When the layers are aligned, it is similar to a normal polariser: (reduces light transmission, but let aligned light through - it's how they cut scattered light from surface reflections)
    Vari-ND1.jpg


    Then as the angle increases, so does the restriction on light getting through:
    Vari-ND2.jpg


    With extremely crossed angles, little light will get through (depending on the strength or filter-factor (ie: construction))

    This one actually looks darker than the last, but it's only because I drew the lines so thick - remember these bars are so thin they're effectively invisible to human eyes (technically we can see them as that's what's providing the darkening, but not as individual bars)
    Vari-ND3.jpg
    Last edited by beeb on Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by beeb » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:10 pm

    Vari-ND.jpg


    With a wide-angle, because it's angle of view is so varied - it sees through different parts of the filter with varying efficiency. The blue lines would pass fairly freely as they're in line with the closest side of the filter, and mainly only effected by the filter on the far side. However - the red lines will be severly restricted as it's trying to see "across" the parallal bars, AND through the second side of the filter.

    End result is you'll normally get two bright corners (on opposing sides), and two darker ones (again, on opposing sides).

    This is mainly only true for wide angles due to the extreme angles the lens recieves light from. With longer lenses (telephotos, etc...) it's not really noticeable, as the light-path is so direct (closer to parallal) so exposure is fairly even across the frame.

    Not saying don't use it - and plenty of great images can be made with ND's and mid/long focal lengths, just something extra to be aware of! :wink:

    Hope you enjoyed my home-made illustrations! :lol:
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by Eden » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:13 pm

    That is an awesome explanation Tim.

    that makes perfect sense to me now.

    :mates:

    Thanks heaps!
    I want to stand as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all the kinds of things you can't see from the center.
    Kurt Vonnegut

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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by beeb » Wed Jan 06, 2016 8:52 pm

    No worries mate. As long as you understand their limitations they have their place. Heaps of things you can still do so don't be put off - I'm sure you'll have plenty of fun. :wink:
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by Doug » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:30 pm

    beeb wrote:Fair enough, it's not everyone's cup of tea. :)

    If you do happen to get interested and you're not using already a CPL, a screw-in ND would be relatively painless for tripod based work. Anything 4 to 6 stops (1.2 - 1.8 ND) is a good range for daylight/dusk (more stops for daylight, less for dusk) without having to run into Bulb mode (too often). Aperture and ISO will give a little wiggle room to push or pull things away from the 30sec timed exposure. If you're lenses have similar filter thread sizes, you can always swap a filter between lenses or buy for the largest thread diameter and use step-down rings to mount it onto the other lenses. Screw-on filters are also easier to get light sealed - though don't fall into the trap of leaving the viewfinder uncovered - you will get uneven exposure or patches of coloured flare! :wink:


    Thanks for the info.
    I have a set of 2-4 and 8 stop ND's. The square ones with a mount system.
    Got them off Geoff M nearly 2 yrs ago when he had them on the site as a give away.

    There is a knack to using them obviously. I thought the glare I was getting in my first test run was from the flatness of the filter surface, but the viewfinder may have contributed.
    They are always there in the bag, so the time will come for another go.
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by beeb » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:12 am

    If they're a Cokin (or similar ) set marked ND2, ND4 and ND8, that's actually 1, 2 and 3 stop filters. There's a whole bunch of naming conventions for ND filters, it's quite annoying!

    If they are actually 2, 4 and 8 stop ND's, the 8-stop would probably need a gasket to seal against the holder and not let light leaks into the camera too.
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by Doug » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:31 pm

    beeb wrote:If they're a Cokin (or similar ) set marked ND2, ND4 and ND8, that's actually 1, 2 and 3 stop filters. There's a whole bunch of naming conventions for ND filters, it's quite annoying!

    If they are actually 2, 4 and 8 stop ND's, the 8-stop would probably need a gasket to seal against the holder and not let light leaks into the camera too.


    I recon you are right. They appear to be no brand Cokin system copies.
    Just tried the one marked ND8 and the meter reading only changed 3 stops, which would explain why when I tried to get a several second exposure on a sunny day I seem to remember resorting to as many as three of the filters in the end.

    Someones blog I follow has good things to say about the Nisi filters compared to the Lee ones they currently use. https://everlookphotography.wordpress.com/page/2/ (a bit past half way down the page)

    Interesting to your comments on the 5D mk 4 rumors, this person has also gone from a 5Dmk3 system to a Sony A7R2 body with Metabones adapter when rumors of the mk4 did not look that promising regarding dynamic range.
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    Re: St. Francis Xavier Cathedral

    by beeb » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:30 pm

    Doug wrote:I recon you are right. They appear to be no brand Cokin system copies.
    Just tried the one marked ND8 and the meter reading only changed 3 stops, which would explain why when I tried to get a several second exposure on a sunny day I seem to remember resorting to as many as three of the filters in the end.

    Sounds about right. I always found 3-stop NDs too weak during the day, but they can be just right at dusk, and often work well with the pastel tones for a smooth feel to the image.

    During the day (sun/light cloud) 6-stops is about the minimum to have the chance to get a 30-second exposure, and even then if it's sunny it'll be minimum ISO and lens stopped right down and probably still max 15s.

    On a random note - my Cokin filters started to colour shift after about 9 months of ownership, gradually creating a stronger and stronger magenta cast, pretty much impossible to remove in post.

    Doug wrote:Someones blog I follow has good things to say about the Nisi filters compared to the Lee ones they currently use. https://everlookphotography.wordpress.com/page/2/ (a bit past half way down the page)

    Interesting you mention this, I had somehow stumbled across this already. I think he exaggerates the difference, but fortunately that means both systems are likely very good. You do get a mild blue cast from the Lee BigStopper but it's extremely rare it's as strong as in his example shot (and normally it just means there's so little light getting through the metering sensors, that they struggle to provide information to the AWB). It would be interesting to see a back-to-back comparison just to see how much difference there is though. The LittleStopper certainly has very minimal cast (almost none in a practical sense unless you're aiming for SOOC jpeg long exposure shots), and is much easier to use than the BigStopper as it's easier to judge the exposure caculations, especially in rapidly changing light like experienced on sunset. For example, if you set up a 2 minute shot with a BigStopper/10-stop ND filter at sunset, and during that exposure the sun drops over the horizon or behind cloud, you'll loose a couple of stops of light and have to compensate by dragging the exposure even more. And a 2 stop loss of light takes two minutes out to eight! Which is obviously pretty hard to judge on the fly too. I've killed a few long exposures under/over compensating in fading light.

    One point of note with the Lee system is the CPL setup is atrocious. Just imcomprehensibly poor design with a thick rimmed (seriously, it's about 10mm!!!) mounted furthest from the lens, it's very easy for even moderately wide lenses to have the edges cropped off. Even with another brand's thin-rimmed filter mounted in the threaded adapter it's all so far forward that most wide lenses still crop heavily. I ended up making a custom setup that uses a Cokin Z-Pro (Z164) CPL in a custom "drop-in" style filter holder within the filter stack. Lee claims placing the CPL behind ND filters degrades image quality but never really gives a reason and I've certainly not noticed any negative effects. I suspect they just didn't factor it in during the design phase (or realise how popular their filters were going to become!)

    Doug wrote:Interesting to your comments on the 5D mk 4 rumors, this person has also gone from a 5Dmk3 system to a Sony A7R2 body with Metabones adapter when rumors of the mk4 did not look that promising regarding dynamic range.

    I have done the same, and while I hadn't even bothered to look if the 5D Mk4 was on its way - the 5Ds/5DsR certainly gives the impression Canon doesn't have any new sensor tech coming.

    After several years of shooting 5D2/5D3 - the depth of information in the shadows of the a7R II is mindblowing. On the flip-side the extra resolution can almost be more of a problem than a benefit at times (It's actually quite difficult to get lenses to provide total sharpness, as the sensor often out-resolves the lenses when shot wide open), but get it right and it's pretty impressive!

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