Any updated views on mirrorless?
  • W G
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    Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by W G » Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:05 pm

    Long time chatters will recall that a few years ago I ventured into the world of APC-C mirrorless with the acquisition of a Fuji X-E1. It impressed and I had a mixture of recreational fun with it and some commercial successes. But a major client do not like it ..... largely based on how it looked. Harley aficionados are, by definition, very much about the 'look' so there were no surprises there.

    I used that camera today for a location shoot in a bikers' clubhouse and I have to tell you, now that the realities of time have eroded any passionate e commitment to the Fuji, I absolute;y hated using it. Things that happen with great facility with a DSLR (I had Canon 5Ds. if you recall) are fidgety and finicky with the mirrorless. A huge issue is with working with studio strobes. No sync terminal and a need to reset the settings for the EVF to show a bright viewable screen image rather than the grossly underexposed 'ambient' image when viewed at the set exposure.

    How many of you guys are still using mirrorless these days and what are your observations?

    Cheers,
    Walter Glover

    "Photography was not a bastard left by science on the doorstep of art, but a legitimate child of the Western pictorial tradition." —Robert Galassi
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by Busiboy » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:51 pm

    I find its just and cumbersome as ff, mightn't be as big or heavy but may as well be.
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by LOZ » Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:59 pm

    Sad to say but my new samsung edge 7 ? supper dooper do anything smart phone dose just about everything I ever need including 4K video . :shock: And sadder still I have a $$$$$$$$$$$$draw full of mirrorless just wasting away :|
    Calm down its not real life its a internet forum:)
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by Doug » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:41 pm

    Still waiting for the death of the DSLR.
    Many appear to still find them if not light, but familiar, comfortable and dependable.

    As for the Harley riders, maybe a leather camera strap with studs and tassels might get a small camera over the edge :)
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by beeb » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:18 am

    Haven't had much of a chance to do anything photography related over the last couple of months, but I am currently shooting with a mirrorless camera when I do get the chance.

    I bought a Sony a7R Mark II.

    After using it for a while now, I would say the following:

    Pros:
    1) Amazing sensor, the files are so malleable it's ridiculous, and with 42mp there's no worries regarding resolution.
    2) While very limited in terms choices available - there are a handful of excellent small/light manual focus lenses either to suit directly or that can be adapted relatively easily.
    And that's about it. If you're willing to treat it as a technical exercise at extracting the nth degree of image quality (from a sub-medium format digital capture device), it's absolutely amazing. So that's two positives.

    Cons:
    1) The menu system. I actually cannot understand how they managed to get it so badly wrong. Settings are all jumbled up, not in any even vaguely coherant groups. Video settings are scattered in amongst still image settings, camera hardware settings, etc... Nor order, badly named, enough said.
    2) The colours suck. They're really dull, and quite cool SOOC, and "feel" very different to edit to the Canon RAW files.
    3) Custom function buttons don't understand the difference between AF and MF lenses. If you set a custom button a function to do with focus, ie: set AF focus point - it doesn't jump to the manual focus equivalent when changing to a manual focus lens. Having 3 or 4 custom function buttons sounds great in theory too, but in reality they just end up masking features that should have their own dedicated buttons/control wheels - ISO settings and focus points for example.
    4) Ergonomics - Small is great in theory, but it is a bit too small for my hands. I would rather a full size D-SLR with less unnecessary features/weight.
    5) Build/sealing. They feel like they would be quite susceptible to damage, and definitely don't give off that rugged and dependable feel of pretty much any Canon D-SLR 7D and up.
    6) Resolution - Awesome in theory, but in reality almost no lenses are up to the task asked by a 42mp full-frame/35mm sensor. It magnifies many flaws that ~22mp sensors never even see, and anything but the sharpest lenses will look very mediocre due to diffraction when stopped down. Epic image quality when you find a lens that can deliver, but...
    7) Lens availability. There's precious few lenses available, either native or adapted - and most of them are either rubbish, overpriced or both!
    8) Expense - horrendously expensive, and given what a dog it is to use - it really doesn't deserve the premium.

    It suits me, because what I want it for is more still life/landscape type stuff so I just work around the mountain of usability issues.

    But I wouldn't want to use it in a professional environment, because it just doesn't feel dependable or consistent enough. And I think that about sums it up. The Canons might not be at the head of the pack in terms of sensor tech (fingers crossed the 5D IV will fix that!), but they are so versatile, consistent and dependable they can be a lot more practical overall.
  • W G
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by W G » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:25 am

    Thanks for the well considered views Tim,

    There was a time I was mildly interested in one of these Sony cameras but lost all interest largely due to a lot of the things you mention.

    As you might recall, there was a time at the dawn of mirrorless that I thought it could all be the answer to a maiden't prayer (digital-wise, that is). I really enjoyed the baby Fuji X-E1 briefly when I first got it. That did not last long. As one who thinks going out with a 4x5 film camera is the small alternative, the size of these mirrorless hobbies is unnecessarily constrained and fidgety. And for a geezer who sets exposure and focus manually all the electronics and options are further electronic impositions, way more then required.

    Throughout my whole life (career) I have worked best with both eyes open and both cerebral hemisphere fully engage — the waist-level finder of the ground glass are where I happily frolic in my picture making. The thought of the EVF momentarily put party hats on my gonads. Not having to peer into a tiny looked-peeper was very appealing. Such did not prove to be the case: a couple of square inches of EVF does not a ground glass make! Having said that, however, a while back I did an architectural interior shoot and working on a solid tripod with a 14mm lens and the EVF was quite pleasant. Add bright sun outside and the EVF is as good useless.

    Image real estate means a lot to me, and not just in the sense of bigger is better. With wide-angle lenses a super wide on full frame is just wider than what is available for APS-C (or, heaven forbid, Micro 4/3rds).

    I currently don't actually own any digital capture device other than my iPhone. And I have to say that the current iPhone cam is perfectly adequate for my needs. But I have the former Fuji X-E1 on loan from my mate who I sold it too and, when essential, I cart it about and use it.

    As a retiree, I have no ideals or aspirations for digital imaging: it was only ever a means of commercial expediency. I never enjoyed it in the slightest and lived from 2005 to 2015 in a constant state of gross disappointment that the commercial world would no longer support the imaging excellence that I was so accustomed to and that I was stuck with a camera that resembled a melted Mars Bar.

    After a lifetime of prostituting my photography passions and taking "other people's picture" I am now free to do whatever it is that I damned well please and with what means I choose. I have to say that mirrorless does not fall into that remit.

    Cheers,
    Walter Glover

    "Photography was not a bastard left by science on the doorstep of art, but a legitimate child of the Western pictorial tradition." —Robert Galassi
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by Busiboy » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:03 am

    Walter,

    I would suggest again that you chasing a digital format to fulfil your wants is fruitless as you aren't ever satisfied and your passion truly lies in the analogue.

    I've been staring at the hopelessly out of date film in my fridge now for years and can't find the time to try and get a single frame on it let alone develop it. I might take the boys for a walk and see how I go this weekend to burn it all up, but I'd suggest taking the digital mode will be abandoned let alone the film.

    Reminds me, I need to get it developed.

    Time for a decent digital workflow is more than limited however, when I do grab a few select frames I always enjoy the results.

    If I win this weeks Oz Lotto I might just invest in more film but at this point that is about as far as it gets.
    *PPOK*
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by W G » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:12 am

    Scott,

    It is all understandable — you have bigger fish to try: you're a husband and a father and a bread-winner.

    My question came about as a result of doing a shoot a couple of weeks ago with some bikes. All the realities came crashing back to me.

    I haven't finished unpacking yet so scanning is out of the question and I am yet to do my first process in the new digs.

    IF you do shoot a couple of frames of film here is a link to a guy that can process for you:

    http://www.sydneysuper8.com.au

    Cheers,
    Walter Glover

    "Photography was not a bastard left by science on the doorstep of art, but a legitimate child of the Western pictorial tradition." —Robert Galassi
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by Busiboy » Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:07 pm

    Got a wide prime for the fuji, see if that makes any difference, at worst it will be the travel lens for a trip at christmas.

    if still no good it can all go on ebay.
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by Doug » Sat Aug 20, 2016 12:23 am

    W G wrote: Not having to peer into a tiny looked-peeper was very appealing. Such did not prove to be the case: a couple of square inches of EVF does not a ground glass make!


    Still not ground glass, but those Ipad type devises being used as cameras make me envious from the stand point of being able get a feel of how a composition will feel at a print like size.
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by W G » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:51 am

    Doug wrote:Still not ground glass, but those Ipad type devises being used as cameras make me envious from the stand point of being able get a feel of how a composition will feel at a print like size.


    In a way, so near and yet so far, Doug. I found that the iPad was quite disappointing as a capture device. In fact, I found it so disappointing at everything that since my move back in April I have not even bothered to find it amongst the, as yet, unpacked baggage.

    But your observation was, indeed, a strong motivation for me in my days of shooting 8x10 and contact printing: the fact that the image at the time of perception was exactly the same as it would be in the final presentation.

    The days of being able to go back there are now probably well and truly passed, but if I could relive just one aspect of the past the 8x10 and contact print would be the most fondly embraced as the aspect of choice. And largely for exactly that reason of a fixed continuum of vision throughout the process.

    Meanwhile, I have grossly disappointed with myself today. After a comparatively good night's sleep (only broken by watching just two episode s of The Bill) I woke up early but opted for the cozy snuggery of the Onkaparinga over getting out and shooting early morning light.


    Cheers,
    Walter Glover

    "Photography was not a bastard left by science on the doorstep of art, but a legitimate child of the Western pictorial tradition." —Robert Galassi
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by beeb » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:07 pm

    I think Doug might be referring to using a iPad or Andriod tablet as a remote for a mirrorless camera, rather than just using the camera in the tablet itself (which are generally pretty mediocre).

    I have done remote tethering with the a7RII over Wi-FI, and it's one thing it does do really well. The live-view feed onto such a large screen (in my case a 10.1" Samsung tablet) certainly helps to fine tune minor tweaks in composition that are too easy to miss on the smaller screens or through an optical viewfinder. It does still have limited usefulness in bright/sunny places though - as it can be challenging to make out what's on the bigger screen in those conditions (about equal with a back of camera live-view LCD).
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by beeb » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:12 pm

    Busiboy wrote:Got a wide prime for the fuji, see if that makes any difference, at worst it will be the travel lens for a trip at christmas.


    IMO, wide angles on the Fuji are not a great combo. The different pixel array doesn't favour fine detail, and real-world scenes don't always translate well. Some people get them singing well, but I suspect coming from large format film it could be quite disappointing.
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by W G » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:49 pm

    beeb wrote:I think Doug might be referring to using a iPad or Andriod tablet as a remote for a mirrorless camera, rather than just using the camera in the tablet itself (which are generally pretty mediocre).



    Point taken.
    Walter Glover

    "Photography was not a bastard left by science on the doorstep of art, but a legitimate child of the Western pictorial tradition." —Robert Galassi
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    Re: Any updated views on mirrorless?

    by Eden » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:48 pm

    I picked up the eos M for fun with retro lenses and portability but it started to wear thin as the eyes worsened so is not used as much as shold be.

    I bought the M3 last week as it uses the add on EVF (pivoting) and I can also use a tablet or phone to view or run it if needed but I have fallen in love with the removable EVF.

    the kit lenses are good enough for my needs being

    -22 f2
    -18-55 f3.3-5.6 is stm
    -55-200 f3.5-6.3 is stm

    I have the Eos ef-efs - Eos-M adapter
    and the FD manual focus adapter

    so will have more than enough lenses to play with on it with the ef/s range giving me from 10mm-400mm with IS and AF if needed

    but the kit lenses are for my skill level more than adequate ( once I get the LED lit Macro they have now )

    I personally would have preferred a pivoting/turning tuck awat touch screen instead of just a pivoting up/down touch screen (always facing out ??? )
    so will wait for the glass screen protector from feebay to get here before playing with it so no idea of general functionality yet.


    bear in mind my expectations/experience/tech knowledge compared to others and the price point

    it was cheaper to get a m3 twin lens kit plus the EVF from the Canon shop than to go grey on ebay or any of the other mobs ??? ( plus there was a $200 cash back also )

    the whole kit so far has cost

    m1
    + 22 f2
    + 18-55
    + flash
    + spare battery
    in box all accessories $420 delivered

    ef/s - M adapter $56 delivered (canon new off ebay)
    fd - M adapter manual focus $32 delivered
    10+16mm macro AF rings $48 delivered
    2nd 90ex flash $54 delivered (canon new off ebay)

    M3
    + 18-55
    + 55-200
    + EVF
    in box all accessories $1037 delivered from Canon with waranty ( + $200 cash back )



    so I sell the M1 and the 18-55 and 2 batteries in box with all accessories with a ef/s adapter thrown in for $350 and get the new macro macro


    so for less than $1300 I will have

    Eos-M3 @24mp crop sensor with wireless and a Big touch screen (with all the bells and whistles lill old me will prob ever need)
    + 22 f2
    + 18-55
    + 55-200
    + 28mm f/3.5 Macro IS STM Lens ring led
    + ef/s - M adapter
    + fd - M adapter manual focus
    + 10+16mm macro AF rings
    + pivoting EVF
    + 2x 90ex flash
    in box all accessories + aus warranty

    I never expected it to be a dslr though

    cheap carry round kit though !

    :mrgreen:
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    PPOK

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